A Question that I’ve Always Wondered About…
August 31st, 2006 | Posted in » Baptist Issues
In light of the events of the past couple days, I have a question that I’ve always wondered about that seems rather appropriate to ask now. So… let’s dive in.
There are obviously divergent opinions in regard to tongues / private prayer language, with Biblical arguments going both ways. The question I have is this: if indeed, as many profess, tongues / private prayer language is NOT Biblically valid, how do we explain away the experiences of so many people worldwide who have experienced these things, many without ever seeking such? Are they making this stuff up? Are they delusional? Are they under the influence of something ungodly?
This really bothers me… and I’m not sure I’ve ever received a good answer. To be completely open and honest, it’s a pretty big barrier for me ever believing that tongues / private prayer language are not valid spiritual gifts.
So… maybe someone out there can shed some light on the matter. Anyone?
20 Responses to “A Question that I’ve Always Wondered About…”
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By David Rogers on Aug 31, 2006
John,
I have come to my position on the continued validity of the “sign gifts” including “tongues” first and foremost through in-depth study of Scripture.
Next, after that, though, in my thinking, is the same point you bring up. I have known too many people whose Christian testimony and lifestyle convinced me too much, and who claimed to have a tongues experience, to say they were either delusional or dishonest. Only alternative left? The “real McCoy.”
This does not, of course, eliminate the possibility of others who are fakers or delusional.”
By micah on Aug 31, 2006
John-
Along with David, I concur with both the biblical support for the continuation of tongues, and the practical support for it.
Having said that, in many places I’m convinced that the “experience” of tongues is alltogether more prevalent than is biblically valid. What I mean is this; humans are creatures of habit and peer pressure. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, in essence. I have experienced many charismatic churches where friends of mine have engaged in the act without actually experiencing some sort of authentic spiritual movement. I have even seen churches offering classes in “how to” concerning tongues.
I guess my point is that I think they are still alive, but in keeping with that thought let’s not forget Paul’s admonission that tongues is the least of all the gifts. We should be cautious in our dealings with “tongues speaking.”
By Kevin Bussey on Aug 31, 2006
Good question and great insight from David and Micah.
I have never spoken in tongues and grew up in a church taht was anti-charismatic! I have met some amazing Charismatics. They love God and I can worship with them as long as they don’t believe that I have to have the gift of speaking in tongues to be filled with the spirit.
By Wayne(IN HIS NAME) on Aug 31, 2006
John,
It is Biblical to speak in Tongues
PPL=Private Prayer Language
1Co 14:28 –
But if there be no interpreter – If there be no one present who has the gift of interpretation.
And let him speak to himself and to God – See the note at 1Co_14:2, note at 1Co_14:4. Let him commune with himself, and with God; let him meditate on the truths which are revealed to him, and let him in secret express his desires to God.
A Brother in Christ
By Bob Cleveland on Sep 1, 2006
Forgive me if I get a bit long-winded, but this has been an important topic to me.
Fakery: of course it happens. Have you ever heard a teacher who seemed (perhaps even painfully) lacking the gift of teaching? Helpers who really didn’t help? Administrators who couldn’t? Of course you have. Those people want to do a certain thing, for whatever reasons (some good hearted and in earnest), but simply weren’t gifted.
That raises the question of how good churches are at really helping people to discern their gifts. In my experience, churches are most concerned about filling the empty slots. Do you know many Education ministers who sit in every class on occasion to listen to the teaching, and verify the giftedness?
The Gift: 1 Corinthians 14:2: For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.(NIV)
I don’t know any circumstances where Paul’s statement is wrong, provided the speaker indeed has that gift. IF that’s true, then Acts 2 describes speakers praying or praising God. Does that fit with what Acts 2 says? Sure does .. it says the hearers heard them declaring the wonders of God.
How about the “2 or 3†admonition? Well .. when they were getting together, people were apparently doing a lot of speaking in tongues. Let’s say it was actually the “miraculous message†thing. Why would Paul say, in effect “Cut out the miraculous messages and speak English now� IF, however, the speakers were speaking prayer or praise, would Paul be likely to tell them to limit that?
I think the second scene is logical. They had no NT then and they needed prophecy from God. They were DOING the things that generated the Bible, and God’s word was necessary then.
My opinion: “Prayer Language†is ALL that “unknown tongues†is. Period. Note that I also include praise in that term, as both are speaking to God.
My first two occurrences of that gift left ABSOLUTELY NO doubt in my mind that it’s a valid gift today. One of the great spiritual tragedies today is that it’s the only gift I know of that is actively discouraged by a large portion of the church.
I’d be happy to share those 2 occurrences with anyone who want it; just email me at
mighty@charter.net
By John on Sep 1, 2006
Thanks for your comments on this thus far, everyone. I appreciate your views and insights.
Of course, we still haven’t heard from someone who holds to a complete cessationist viewpoint. I’m highly interested in finding out what such individuals have to say about the large number of believers who have experienced tongues or private prayer language. How can cessationists, who have NOT experienced these gifts, dismiss the experiences of those who have? What is their rationale for doing so?
I really just don’t get it, yet really want to understand that particular viewpoint better.
By John on Sep 1, 2006
Bob,
For some reason, my spam filter blocked your comment. Thankfully it allowed me to recover it, as I greatly appreciate your wisdom and insights on this matter!
I, for one, would love to hear about your experience with prayer language. I’ll e-mail you a little later so that you can share off the blog (unless you’re just dying to post it online for all to read!).
By Bob Cleveland on Sep 1, 2006
Just so any readers who happen by won’t be left in agonizing suspense over the long weekend, I’ll state publicly what I emailed you earlier.
I’ll email you the experiences.
By Bob Cleveland on Sep 1, 2006
Micah:
Insightful observations. I, as one with that gift, assure you it is a lesser gift. But when something is from God, “less” is a whole lot more than “little”.
I’ve heard folks use those passages to downplay that gift and to say “Don’t do THAT … do THIS instead (prophesy). Well .. Paul said He thanked God he spoke in tongues more than all of them. How would he decry someithing in others, when he thanked God for it in his own life?
Back to the original premise: Some folks believe if it hasn’t happened to them, it doesn’t happen. That’s just not the case, and is entirely self-oriented. And, it seems that the higher the position, the more adamant the feelings against the gift.
There are some world-class minds in the blogging community and the vast majority have an open mind, it seems to me. That says a lot, IMHO.
By Judah on Sep 1, 2006
John, I have an experience to share.
In the past I have participated in a small prayer group, about 8 people, all being members of the generally staid Church of England, but most having also received the gift of tongues.
The little group liked to start with singing some favourite hymns but I can tell you, were pretty awful singers and it wasn’t exactly inspiring with all those grating flat notes and poor time keeping!
Then something amazing would happen. First one person then another would express some words of praise, and the singing changed from those badly sung hymns to “singing in the Spirit” and a transformation took place. There were no longer any off-key notes. The harmonies that came forth were truly beautiful, all weaving together so perfectly. Yes, it was singing in tongues, and there is no doubt in my mind that these people (who were normally dreadful singers) had opened themselves to prayer that was the expression of something (Someone!) far greater than themselves. They couldn’t sing to save themselves, but this was entirely different. It certainly convinced me.
I have also received the gift of tongues. I have only ever used it when spiritually moved to do so, and that has only ever been in private. These are not sounds deliberately or consciously made up, but seem to be “given” in that immediate instant. They well up from the depths of my being, the centre of my soul, with a sense of presence that I can only describe as awesome, holy and loving. The presence is Godly, not ungodly ~ and of that I am also convinced.
By Judah on Sep 1, 2006
My prayer experience is that of someone who is a Christian.
Just as it is said that Satan can masquerade as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) so I believe he can mimic spiritual gifts in those who belong to him. This may explain some incidences of glossolalia which are not consistent with Godliness.
I have only once heard “speaking in tongues” in my work (as a mental health professional) with folks with schizophrenia as it is not common but has been reported. More often it is echolalia (meaningless sounds characteristically repetitive) which is different again. Glossolalia is also sometimes associated with trances where some kind of stimulant or hallucinogenic susbstance plus repetitive rhythmic dance/music may be used as a part of a cultural practice. This is pagan, not Christian.
Satan is the father of lies, the great deceiver, and will spread chaos and evil mischief. I think the following passage is an important thing to consider in discerning the difference in spiritual origins:
Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.
By Bob Cleveland on Sep 2, 2006
Judah:
My best friend does not have an ear for pitch, and is normally unable to carry a tune. But let him sing in an unknown tongue, and it is as you described in your first post.
I’m glad to hear your account. Until I read it, I figured I was crazy.
Cool! Thanks for the comment.
By Judah on Sep 2, 2006
Bob, you are not crazy ~ well, at least not on this score!
I was a little scared of tongues-speaking Christians when I first encountered them, and stayed rather reserved when around them. It was this prayer group experience that firstly astounded and then gently reassured and convinced me. It was beautiful, awesome and humbling … and uplifting.
By Bob Cleveland on Sep 2, 2006
Judah:
Yeah .. God’s like that.
By Bryan Riley on Sep 5, 2006
I believe the issue is that all too often we interpret the scripture in accordance with our personal experience. Thus, if a person hasn’t experienced tongues or has only seen what appeared to be fakery, they assume there must not be such a gift today and they read the scripture to that foregone conclusion. This, in my humble opinion, is walking by sight and in the flesh and not by faith or in the Spirit. Now, as I say that, please let me be clear that I do it all the time. I am constantly convicted of things where I fail to apply scripture as it is written to my life because it just seems crazy. But, God keeps reminding me that He is bigger than I can ever imagine Him to be.
By Wes Kenney on Sep 5, 2006
John,
While I am not one who is ready to say that the gift of tongues has ceased, I am terribly cautious about it. My caution stems from the fact that while I’ve heard of many, many instances of people speaking in tongues, I’ve never heard of one instance of interpretation taking place, and their proximity to each other in 1 Corinthians 14 makes me believe that interpretation is quite necessary.
I’ve had a person here in Valliant tell me that I couldn’t possibly be saved if I had never spoken in tongues, and this woman had never even heard of interpretation.
Absent a verifiable instance of interpretation, I have trouble believing that the Spirit is bestowing these gifts today. He could, though.
By the way, I love the new look.
By John on Sep 5, 2006
Wes,
I understand your concerns, and quite honestly, I share them when it comes to the abuse or misuse of tongues (particularly theology that requires tongues as evidence of being filled with the Spirit… that just doesn’t seem very Biblical to me).
That’s not quite the issue I’m struggling with, though.
The question I really want to see a good answer to is this: how do you respond to people like Bob or Judah here who have experienced tongues without interpretation? If not a Spirit-given gift, what have they experienced?
I just don’t get it. It seems to me that many dismiss that which they do not know.
Anyway, maybe no one has an answer to my question, and this whole issue really falls into that category of things about God I will never understand this side of heaven.
By Judah on Sep 6, 2006
Whoa! I did not say the prayer languages I witnessed came without interpretation. In that small prayer group I mentioned above, whenever tongues were spoken another spoke fluently in English. The content was mainly praise and encouragement. I have no way of verifying that the interpretation was accurate except that it did fit the context of the group and those who were praying. What impressed me more than anything was the spontaneous harmonies in the singing and that they were beautifully interwoven and so different from that previously produced by a bunch of tone-deaf hymn singers.
In my own experience I do have a sense of what it is my prayer language is about. I experience a sense of putting to words concerns that are otherwise very hard to articulate, as when I am grappling with a problem or worry and adequate expression of it escapes me. In private there is no need for interpretation as this experience goes with it. What frequently follows is an insight or quiet understanding that comes to me, just as Jesus has mentioned in John 14:26.
This is about as much as I have shared with anyone lately on this subject. I normally say nothing as there is a so much wrongful (I believe) teaching and acrimony that results from it. I tend to distance myself from those overly enthusiastic charismatics who think as some do that tongues is the only evidence of the Spirit’s in-dwelling. I have only ever been moved to speak in this prayer language in private situations. For others it is different. Rev McKissic’s sermon is very much in line with my own understanding on this subject.
Many do dismiss what they do not know. Perhaps it is a bit like faith, the point at which one decides to believe Jesus is Who He is and that His promises are true. Does one believe what is happening, understanding it in the context in which it is happening, if it is happening? Or does one resist instead – which I nearly did? For me it did take an act of faith as I was not expecting it, and then later when some insisted that it is a gift for the entire church and that I am sinful (selfish and greedy) to use the gift only privately. I do not know in detail all the theological arguments back and forth, but I do know what is my own experience, that it is authentic, and when it is that I am Spirit-moved to use it.
The most important thing is to be open to God’s Will and to whatever He chooses to be in the path along which He directs you. All Christians are in-dwelt by the Spirit and we are all loved beyond measure by our Father who will give each one of us every good gift as we require it.
I’m not sure what else I can say.
By John on Sep 6, 2006
My apologies, Judah… I misunderstood. Thanks for the gentle correction and clarification!
Quite honestly, it’s my opinion that personal accounts of tongues (such as yours) is what has been missing from the discussion regarding this gift… the discussions are very much academic in nature. I, for one, am very grateful that you and Bob have shared your experiences here to help those of us who have never experienced tongues relate and understand.